Jonathan Gabler, GAB Music, Kleio Records, Panta R

0:26?How many?

0:51HostWell, OK. So the three labels are what? One is the newest one that you're wearing right now, the merch.

1:50HostYeah. So the tour with Ames, right? Yes. And you also play bass, right? Yes, I also play the bass. Yeah. All right.

2:12HostSo your main focus right now is label the break stuff.

2:19HostSo what about the Pantare and.

3:07HostYeah, but still the responsibilities were piling up slowly.

3:45?And we have like a, it's also, it's also a label, it's called Gap Music.

4:30HostWhich year are we talking about?

4:34HostAnd Studio opened 2008.

4:47HostAll right, so the Gap Music, the studio came in 2008.

5:00HostIs it in Vienna or?

7:26HostWhat a coincidence.

8:07HostYes, Julian, say hello.

8:09?Hello.

8:10HostJulian is a regular site person on the site.

8:16HostTalking to the microphone.

8:52HostI interviewed Paracel Caravan and it was a failed interview.

9:45HostAnd all of this happened after you studied or during your studies? During my studies.

10:02HostSo it was exactly what you needed. Yes. So did you learn stuff that you actually need?

10:27?Yeah.

11:20HostThe times are changing.

11:21?True.

12:07HostYeah. Getting, uh, pitted on is also an experience, but it's something that you want to avoid.

12:13?Yeah, sure.

12:39HostSo, uh, at Panthere, okay. So Panthere, what about, uh, okay. First, before we talk about Panthere, let's talk about third one, the Cleo records.

13:23?Nepotism.

15:13HostAnd I mean, you mean you can't earn money with, with, uh, from digital sales or. Well, it was, it was a time where like, especially, um, rock bands struggled converting, um, their fans into a digital, uh, zone because there was a skepticism going on.

15:31?Like a lot of, a lot of it. And I think it's completely fair, um, that there was skepticism.

16:12HostWell, it's, it proves that, uh, uh, in a way you were successful because what I noticed during Corona, it's like 80% people struggle and there were 20% of people who established who, who, who, you know, like I have a, I can finally relax and have a vacation and think. Yeah. And because they were touring all the time, doing all the work all the time. So you're one of those people. Okay, cool. Nice to meet you.

17:23HostBut you mean like air, airplay, uh, collective online, radio, everything.

17:29?Airplay.

17:30HostI mean, you mean radio.

17:41HostLicensing stuff.

17:45?Yeah. That they have to pay. The real one.

17:53HostAnd another person I've never met who actually got money from, from airplay. Like, you know, like, because usually I talk to independent artists, you know, they're not in a, they're not so, you know, successful or whatever, right?

19:55HostI know that you're talking about Ames, right? Yeah. Yeah. I noticed because especially when you did, because I know Ames before Ames, right? I mean, didn't know personally, but I was keeping an eye on your label, you, actually, we met digitally first, digitally first, because I made a music video for, uh, Pueblo Pueblo. No, uh, Pablo Inferno.

20:15?Pablo Inferno.

20:16HostYeah. Pablo Inferno.

20:17?Yeah.

20:18HostAnd that's how I knew, because you wrote, you had to write a press release regarding the music video. And then, then you wrote a really nice stuff. So I wrote to you and that's how we got to know each other. Then finally, years later, we met personally. But, uh, yeah, uh, Ames and Amy Wilde, that was an interesting, that's, it's like, um, just, uh, from the perspective of, of, uh, artist development is interesting because it's like rebranding, different vibes, different, different, different feel. And I know what you mean about the rock stuff. It's going into, it's just like a kind of a new genre in a way that, that, that, uh, like, not trendy, but it's like, I, I see it more often.

21:12HostIt's like a, it's like a punkish myth with goth. Uh, yeah. Uh, and lots of, uh, uh, not leather, but you know, the good, the glossy latex stuff, right?

21:23HostYeah. And it's pink hair.

21:25?Yeah.

21:26HostUh, all right. But how did you decide, uh, I mean, you are a manager of Ames, right? So, uh, did you know where to go regarding the development or how did the, the, the, the looks, everything got developed? Because it's quite a drastic jump.

21:42?It's a jump. Yeah.

23:29HostWhich is a big, big, big, big actually.

23:51HostLike a licensing music to, to UPB?

25:30HostSo how did you know, Amy, how did you come?

25:49HostSo we're like, okay. How to gather money from different kinds.

26:11HostIt was a big thing.

26:46HostYou mean like, like let me manage you and be.

26:53HostYou didn't, I mean, you were busy already enough with your stuff.

27:24HostWhat, what, what is the role of the artist manager?

28:09HostHow close are you getting to the artist on, on, on, on a personal, well, you know, like, uh, buying coffee and stuff.

28:23HostSo when we're talking about Ames, it's probably it's this, you have like the, the closest relationship from all the previous experience as an artist manager. This one is like the one that is, you can probably truly say, at least from, from what I know about you, that it's the proper artist management job kind of.

29:09HostSo, or it's good that, that the person has a concept of, that there's a goal in general. Yes.

29:38HostEven recruitment started somewhere.

29:40?True.

29:44HostWell, it's, it's, you don't have to be right about anything. You have to, from what I know about Rick Rubin and, and, and his interviews is like, do your thing, believe in what you're doing, do the end. True. And then maybe it will work out or not. That's, that's, that's, that's what I learned from all those interviews. Hard work. Yes. You need it, but you also need to be lucky. So sometimes it's just, you know, you, you never know.

30:07?Sure.

30:33HostSo what's, what's the most important quality in an artist management manager as a job? I'm pretty sure I know what you're going to answer, but I wonder if you're going to answer that.

30:48HostOh, I didn't expect that. Okay.

32:25?work.

32:25HostMy, my experience is like a little bit delved into the artist management. I was not a manager, but I was a, how I like to call it, conciliari. So I was, I knew from the theoretical perspective, how it should be and what, and then try to correct the mistake, not mistakes, but at least the direction kind of where a band should go. And the biggest problem was actually just to convince people to do anything.

32:50?Yeah.

32:50HostOr people just don't want to do, I mean, it depends. Like, for example, in your case, all the bands or most from what I know are already like motivated musicians who like most of them have goals and stuff, but there are like other bands who just, who say they want to achieve something, but in reality, they just want to be a weekend band and they have families.

34:35HostWhat do you mean? Is it bad to be played on a... No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. What's good or bad about it?

35:07HostAll right. So FM, what, what's the next step after... No, it's all good. What's actually like, what's the next step after playing at FM4, for example? Like...

35:20HostRight, but you know, like FM4, pretty much, if you are like in a scene long enough, you will be played at FM4, you know? So people need to understand that also, it's only like a small step, even though it's a big step. Yes, yes, yes. But the next level, what's the next level actually after that?

38:04?Yeah. Yeah.

38:05HostWhat's your contribution to society and Austria in particular?

38:12?Yeah. Why not?

38:13HostNo, you can, if you can, if you can explain why is it good for the country and society? For the country. No, no, for real. Yeah.

38:37HostTotal satanic band.

40:44HostThey just want to be like, like Queens of the Stone Age guys. Be them basically, like be on stage and be cool. And that's why you imitate the sound and the look, but they, they, they stay at that level because you need to go to the next level, understand what, what you are.

42:25HostWell, we can talk about the music industry on a whole in a Spotify one thing, but I want to say regarding the, uh, the fantasy world. And, uh, the thing is, uh, um, it's really hard, uh, to look into yourself properly. And that's one thing. And secondly, you put it out for other people to judge, which is super hard because, you know, like if, if I like, uh, like, uh, Black Death Matter connected with, uh, unicorns, like, like, or some, some, some toy stuff, but, but that's actually how I, or not, or you're a black metal artist, but you, you like unicorns, right?

43:11HostAnd then you know that in your black metal small community, everybody will judge you that you're not cool, but this is how you feel. And, you know, or, or, or everybody, you just play the music that people around you will support. Well, that actually, it's not you. It's not what you actually sing about or you play about.

43:49HostYeah. Or like, for example, ABBA, you know, I had a clear vision, right? They're not going to sing about violence and they're not going to sing about some, some, some, some negative stuff. Let's sing about love. They made a choice. They stuck to it. Well, they're super talented, but they're super talented. So there's that.

45:57HostYeah. I mean, if it's instrumental music, usually the big thing is some technical aspect of the instrumental music, because yeah, like, for example, I made the music video for one band, The Loom of Time and the guys, he was playing metal, right? And his concept was that he doesn't care about the lyrics. He wants to play on instrumental music. So he puts lyrics just for people, just whatever. It doesn't mean it that much, but at the same time, he puts a lot of thought into the lyrics. Like each line is, is, it's almost meta. He, he, he overthinks it, but at the same time, it's not really important. But each line, and there's a concept behind each song. And he made a whole podcast series, like breaking down each song, what he meant, what, what he

46:47?did, that's cool.

47:02HostIs there some, like a crucial key components regarding the, the bands to be successful? Well, probably, yeah, a message, right? So what about, what, what, what, what level of, what level of financial, not financial, but like, like business aspects of like business thinking and consider like in comparison to

47:26?artistry?

47:43HostFor example, like, like the question, right? Like a practical question. Like I, once I calculated how much gigs you need to do per year to pay, to afford a manager, right? Because manager depends, but takes a percentage, right? But if you want to go into like zero, at least to break even how many gigs, and that was like a lot, it was like almost like 80 or something.

48:24Hostwhat I was thinking. Like, only to sustain it, just for people to understand that.

49:44HostWell, yeah, but it's, but it's this thing, you know, like if you hang out because some people, some people think that you shouldn't hang out. I'm a soul artist, whatever. I just stay alone. But you actually need people to help you out on a way, right? Some people see that you have a potential and they will make you an album cover.

51:10HostYeah. But usually those bands are already like have some kind of dedication, some kind of goals because you just don't, uh, uh, artists already, if, if artists can already feel, uh, regular base on regular basis, uh, venues already. So it, it means that artists are already doing some social, some kind of social media, some kind of working towards, because you can't just make music and just put it somewhere on, on YouTube and, and hope for the best. Yeah. Hope for the best. It's not working. 99% doesn't work. It happens, but it's not so often.

51:52HostYeah. Yeah.

52:17HostBecause you're just one small square on a whole stream of, of, of social media or whatever.

53:05HostWell, some people are not ready for success or some people don't want success.

53:22HostSo it's another thing. Yeah.

54:03HostThey're not going far, let's say like this.

54:20HostEverything. Logistics. Just like a one, like plus, okay. If you have a tour or musicians, but still deciding on stuff is so much easier.

55:16HostYou need to have some expectation. What did you learn about people while like managing? You probably definitely had some like ups and downs, you know, but some stuff maybe surprised you.

55:28?What did you learn?

55:31HostNo, I was expecting, don't trust anyone, don't trust anyone, read the contract, take

56:38HostSo basically you need to imitate, if, I mean, if you don't know, you need to imitate somebody, take recruitment, for example, like now, you know, totally zen, open to conversation. Oh, cool dude. Yeah. What's, yeah. What's, let's, let's talk about it. It's chill, man. If you don't want to do it, I don't want to do it. Okay, fine. You know?

56:59HostYes. And he doesn't have to. He's already in the, I don't want to say the end, but he's like at the top, right? He was probably also same, same kind of the guy, like everybody else in the beginning.

57:54HostSo also it depends, uh, it depends what you want, right? So like what, what, what, what's, I mean, like all the, all the terms that we're using success, goals and stuff, like I, I hate it, right? Like the terms, right? Because it's really like business kind of things, but you need it. It depends. It's just, it's just like the connotation about like around it is, is, uh, I don't want to say commercial, but you know, like anti-artistic kind of goals and stuff, but you need all that stuff.

58:24?Well, it depends on what you're doing, right?

59:56HostYou mentioned age. I noticed that, I mean, I mean, first of all, when I found out about the music industry, how it works, I got depressed because I was like, okay, 99% of, okay, 98% of people will can't make it because to get into there and to have a sustainable life, kind of life, it's

60:16HostAnd you, and like the age, for example, right? Because you, good that you mentioned age, because I, if you just take any famous band, just see how many albums they had before they became famous or had some kind of success, it's, it was already like five years. So, I mean, the Beatles, how, I think they were like 18 or something like this when they started, right? They had a 10 year career. That's also another thing. There's a, each band has a, that musician kind of knows the window where you can have a chance, but it doesn't mean that you still can have a chance later, right? But there's higher chance that if you start younger and you keep it with it going, you will somehow eventually will get there.

60:59?True.

60:59HostI mean, was it something like that in your experience?

61:14HostAre there any bands that are from the, like in Austria or that are going up or like super young?

61:22?Leftovers. Yeah.

61:29HostI was the first speaking interviewer with Leftovers. Nice.

61:40?Sure.

61:53HostI showed it to Julian, like, like, I remember I told him like, Hey, I'm going to interview the guys or whatever afterwards and I showed to Julian the music and he's like, I don't get it. I was like, exactly.

62:02?Right.

62:03HostThat's why I want to interview them because this is the hot shit.

62:05?That's true. I don't really remember too much.

62:07HostYou said that's like, I don't get it. I was probably saying I feel old.

63:02Hostwell, you had some experience during the tour.

63:36HostYeah. Leftovers. And especially I saw them then play the live show after the interview and they saw the fans. I, I, I saw that they have fans before, you know, I could see that they're like going wild with it.

63:50HostYeah. Yeah. And I was sold on when there was like, like 20 people in the crowd and it was mainly their fans only, you know, nobody cared. I mean, only, only the fans cared, you know, everybody. But then you could see that the, the, the, the, the group, but before they sang in English and it was not working out and they switched to German.

64:10?Yes. Yeah.

64:11HostIt was a completely different atmosphere, even though it sounds a little bit different, same, but still, you know, completely changed everything.

64:20?True.

65:30HostYeah. But I knew, I knew immediately that they will go far for just because the feeling of, okay, uh, like the feeling, okay, we've heard this before. And I was like, that's exactly why it's going to work because it's like the nineties, uh, nostalgia, uh, in a way for, for us, it's nostalgia for them. It's a new world completely right. The music, but it was going slowly, slowly building up, you know, it started like five, six years ago. I remember noticing it and now it's like finally kicking in.

65:58?Yeah.

66:53HostYeah. I mean, they, they basically like, it's like the Beatles, man. The Beatles in the beginning were a pop band, you know, like a absolute, their fan base or Elvis Presley, the, the fan base were teenage girls, you know, the same thing here, you know, if you can, if you, if the artist can like, like, uh, get the stuff from the soul that's connecting the, the, the, the teenage girl, you're golden, man, but not always, not always.

67:40HostYeah. It all smells that it's a spirit, right?

68:37HostScientific and, and, uh, and yeah, yeah, yeah. From, from perspective of grumpy old man. Yeah.

69:12?We are.

69:16HostI wanted to ask you about the, because you mentioned the music industry, right? So we were talking about the role of the artist manager in the, in the, in the artist life, let's say like this, then the artist who should be, what about the conditions while we're talking, like, uh, talking about, you know, motherfucking music industry.

70:47HostBasically Spotify is, I always said that it's another channel. It's free, but I mean, for free, I mean, you don't get money.

70:57HostYou don't get money, but at least it's, uh, it's a platform where you can send a link to somebody and they immediately can listen to it.

71:27HostOh, you mean that you have to play it how the game is. Okay.

71:32HostYou can't, you can't skip it. You need to go into the play. Uh, I mean, try to get into the playlist, get in the rotation, uh, like, uh, the algorithm, uh, think about that.

72:52HostAnd also they still use Facebook.

72:57HostWell, what I meant is like, uh, they're so stuck. I mean, not all of them, of course, but most of them are so stuck in the way how they like to do stuff. You mean bands? Basically they're, um, bands or bands, bands, especially in the rock metal. You like bands? I don't like people in general.

73:18HostNo, so, uh, so people are so, they don't want to even learn, even open an Instagram account. At least it was like that a couple of years ago. Right. So Spotify, algorithms, uh, uh, awareness, engagement, TikTok. Yeah. Actually we need to talk about TikTok also, you know, it's terrible. It's completely, you know what I learned recently by experimenting myself with TikTok, TikTok, you can get result in one hour. You will see immediately if it works or not. Yes. And it's more, and in comparison to YouTube or Instagram, uh, YouTube shorts, shorts.

73:54?Yeah.

73:54HostYouTube shorts, you need like seven hours and then you see if it goes up or down, uh, It's very responsive.

74:01?Yeah.

74:30HostSo are you hot? Do you have the followers?

75:19?Right.

76:10HostNo, it's not to you.

76:26?Oh, yeah.

76:28HostI tried it myself.

77:36HostSo basically that's what I also noticed is that TikTok is more regional. So if you're like in Vienna, Austria, it will push it more to the local areas because of the language speaking and all that stuff. And YouTube is more global. So if you, if you post at the right time, it might have gone viral in United States, you know, depending on your language, you know. That's true.

78:50?Um, screaming people.

78:59HostI mean, it's, it's, it's, it's like Instagram, how it was, uh, when it was organic, right? So at the moment, TikTok is like super organic. You can, you can, you can get, you can get, if you, if you're doing the right things, what the TikTok, uh, thinks you should do, then you have a chance because, and they want dancing people.

79:29?Pornhub.

79:31HostBut actually, OnlyFans, I was about to say, OnlyFans is the new creative platform.

79:40?I was.

80:09HostIt's just that OnlyFans has this vibe because that, uh, what we know about the people who are there, it's one thing.

81:03HostWe're talking about the mail subscription kind of, because Instagram is not going to show even if you make a post to your favorites, hit the bell, like, and people, they're not going to show it unless it's cool.

82:02?Nice. Nice.

82:21HostYeah.

82:31HostI made my account private, so it's like, I need a space for my own.

82:38HostSo that nobody, I don't give a fuck about followers. I just want to cry somewhere.

82:50HostYeah. I was just like, I need a place. Right.

83:22HostIt's, it's, it's, it's the same problem, but it just looks different. It's the same play in the club. If you want to play in the club, you need to pay. If you want to be on the radio, you need to pay kind of payola kind of thing. Uh, it's not as, I mean, it's bad, but it's not as bad. It's just same shit. It's just need to work even harder.

83:45?Right.

83:45HostBecause for example, even for the subscription model, you need to provide the content. So it means you need to, like extra content, you need to work on.

84:09HostIt's a green piece, uh, uh, business strategy, you know, basically just for, yeah.

84:15?Yeah.

84:16HostBut it's a good idea. It's a good idea. Just give us two, two euros and you will support the cause kind of, right? You will support the artist.

84:53HostDie hard fans, right? I mean, this is like the fans fans, right? This is what you want.

85:30HostHave you tried the Discord channel?

85:43HostAnd so, because for example, I was checking out because I, I don't use Discord for, for, for its intended purpose. Right. But I, sometimes you would have to, because Discord became like a forum kind of a thing, right. Where people can communicate. And for example, like, uh, when I interviewed Skinned, right. Skinned, you know, the band Skinned kind of, right. So they have a Discord channel with like all diehard fans. And then, like, and then I posted the podcast link there. And from there, it went up. This is like a perfect opportunity. And I was like, guys, I will soon upload the episodes. Wait. I was like, yeah, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. We're like, cool. Super nice people. All cool. You know, because it's like the thing.

86:56HostIt's email.

87:15HostAnd I would, I would advise if somebody wants to actually to do it, to subscribe themselves to some cool bands that they, who, who does it, right. And see what kind of emails they send to you. Cause sometimes, you know, like I, I subscribe to a band Tiger Cup, uh, just to know, I wanted to get into their private website, not private, but it was hidden behind the password. So I mean, I was doing research, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was harassing also like a guy on Reddit to give me, nobody gave me passwords anyway. Right. In the end, I figured out that it was nothing interesting, but, uh, how they, uh, right. The new sweater is because, uh, you can really configure it towards the person who is like, right. So they, they write when you like open email and you have email from them. It's like, hello, buddy. I was like, oh, nice. Like they can do buddy or they, I mean, they change it, they adapt it to you, to your name or who you are. Right. But it's just the idea, just like, oh, hello, buddy, you missed me or something like this.

88:54HostYou mean like, uh, uh, as an artist, like on a personal level, kind of holding off a

89:27HostThis comes to the, to the, to the question of, uh, understanding who you are, right? Yes. Who you are and not being afraid to show. I mean, you still control what to show, right? But accepting it and presenting it. It's, it's not easy, of course, but you don't have to show all your secrets.

89:49HostBates, right? The band Bates, how they, they, they attitude, it's like a meme band.

89:54?Yes.

90:51HostBut, uh, but we should, we talk about digital stuff all the time, but it's not the only thing you should do because, because it's just like a, it's a huge part, right? But it's only part you need to bring people to the platform. Like you need to physically work hard to get people at least to know that you have an Instagram, for example. A hundred percent agree.

91:22HostWe all start with the same thing, like family, friends, and then their friends around their friends. And then, but you need to tell them, please. I mean, it's, it's, everybody's doing it, but don't, don't, this is my personal, don't send a Facebook invite, just invite everybody, you know, like to, to, to like my page.

92:20HostUh, yeah, because it's not the same strategy for each person because sometimes, I mean, it depends. Maybe like, for example, like, uh, you have a studio, you can organize a live stream, uh, concert at your place, right? For example, maybe somebody doesn't have, but they have something else, something really cool that they can like use, you know, like see what you have, right. And do the best out of it or ask somebody like you only hear what to do. Right. Yeah.

93:16HostThe target group, but it is important.

93:31HostYeah. They're just as simple.

93:36HostYeah. Yeah. I mean, just the age, you know, like, like you, you may be singing about stuff that your audience doesn't know about, you know, like they can't relate physically. They don't know what it is. You, you, you can't think about, oh my God, my, this, this cat is not working anymore. And Pac-Man died.

94:41?Yeah.

94:49?All right.

94:51HostAll right. So, so, okay. All the, all the advice that we did to, to, to, to, to, to people we need to. Okay. So you probably tried to figure out who you are and what you want to sing about. Right. Did you have like a, did you write it down or like, or you understand it?

95:14?Yes. Yes. Yeah. The band.

96:07HostAnd you said that you didn't harass anybody. I did.

96:49?That's cool.

96:53?Beast.

97:11HostIs it your frustration with the music industry and what you've been through?

98:11HostSo, and you, you mean also like, like, uh, we have examples of people writing stuff and nobody's listening to them, right? And, oh, and then after what happened, after it's like, oh, we didn't know, I mean, but it was always there.

98:27HostI think for each other there is really important. Communication is the openness.

98:53HostSo, yeah, um, I think it's also scary, you know, when you get to know each other. Yeah, it's scary. On some stuff, like, dude, I don't want to go there, but you kind of, you know, I mean, if you're a friend and if you listen to it, then you just, just jump in and that's it.

99:17HostLet the guy say, dude, it's all fake, right? And you're like, are you sure? And then, and then each time it's like, like, oh man, you, you wrote some, some horrible, it's all fake. It's like, I, I, you want to talk?

100:08HostAs long as it works, it doesn't matter like what, what, what your influence is. Maybe he, maybe he loves Taylor Swift, you don't. And that's it, you know?

100:17?But yeah. But it works.

100:23HostWe'll see. We'll see references to Taylor Swift songs.

100:48HostOh, oh, name drop. Name drop.

100:52HostJulian, the photos. Yeah, yeah. And he's like, sitting there in silence, not, not, not dropping names.

101:09HostAnd then it was mainly business, you mean?

101:13HostLike it was, I mean, I mean, you were like an artist, uh, manager all the time and a label manager. Yeah. And performing artists, but not in a sense that I was, I was, uh, creating music. Yeah. You were supporting.

101:26?Yeah. That's the basis.

101:42HostAll right. So what's the music for you then? It's like a way to, is it a classic way to express yourself or is it something like a deeper, you know, exploration of yourself? Have you thought about that?

102:32HostDo you know you mentioned pop? Like I, because I can ask, there's, because usually I interview rock people, right? But, uh, uh, can we say that Iams is closer to pop kind of music or is it still something? Me? Ames. Ames. Ames.

102:53HostSo I wanted to ask, like, the world, like if, if, if a rock oriented person asking about pop, how's that world actually, you know, is that so much, I mean, you know, about the pop and not pop. Is it, is there a drastic difference between those worlds?

103:57Hostit's not, it still can be really good.

104:00HostI mean, the weekend, come on. No, I can have, I can tell you Michael Jackson with a thriller was a super calculated project. Everybody were hired there for a specific person to make a super awesome album, but at the same time, of course make money, but it still feels like they wanted to make the fucking awesome album, right? Yes.

104:48?Yeah.

104:53?Beast. Beast. Mega monster. Yeah.

107:11?Maneskin.

107:12HostOh, Maneskin. Maneskin, yeah.

107:21HostYeah, it's a different level.

107:50HostI mean, each band, no matter which genre or whatever, uh, if they're successful, they become pop, but not pop in the sense of it's pop music, uh, of, uh, uh, girl, uh, music for teenagers, but it's the popular music, right? And even if you see, watch interviews with like, for example, Metallica, right? They, or like Red Hot Chili Peppers.

108:12HostAnd they all talk in the language of, of, of, of like business and like, oh, we got to reach with, uh, you know, blah, blah, blah. Like, it's, it's like, they're talking about money. It's like, it's supposed to be not cool, right? But it's just reality. They have to deal with it, right? Like, it's like, in the beginning, you don't think about it, but at some point you have to think and then naturally become corrupt.

108:45HostThat's why I said that, like when I was studying it, like, uh, understanding the music industry, I was like, this is, this is, this is fucked up. And, uh, I read a book who's like, uh, the whole idea is to teach business of like, uh, I forgot, like the music industry or something like this, just the contract clauses, you know, just what you can find in contract. If you look, it's like, I'm out, I'm out.

109:06?You have to know it, you know, like the, and you need to trust the lawyer because the

109:16HostI think, um, yeah, actually it's another thing, self-education and actually, uh, wanting to know that because if you don't want to know it, you, unfortunately you'll get screwed.

110:39HostYeah, very similar. It's like, especially when we went to Ames concert and it's completely different ground from what I'm used to. And you immediately see this is a collective, this is like, uh, people with a common, uh, life, let's say.

110:55HostAnd it's the same thing with, and that's, that's the thing, you know, like, like, uh, regarding the collective, uh, experience of it, which is, you can find people, if you're looking for people of your group of people, you can find it like, like, through music, right?

112:19?Yeah.

112:22HostI mean, it's a little bit different, but it's the same.

112:26?Yeah.

112:27HostIn, in ideal world, you, you play your music and somebody discovers it and falls in love

112:33?with you and stuff.

112:45HostWell, it's more money because it's completely, it's more oriented for, if we're talking about pop in the sense of taste, yeah, it's, it's, it's industry.

112:54?So it's completely different.

113:04?Yeah.

113:37HostBecause I started to watch TikTok also. So that's how they discover new, new music.

114:01HostThe same thing. I mean, the greater one fleet was a perfect example. Okay. We're going to sing, we're going to copy that Zeppelin and then we'll make our own stuff. All right. Yes. But it's going to be a lot of shit from everybody, but we'll get through it.

114:15?Sure.

114:15HostI mean, it was an approach.

114:26?Yeah.

114:26HostIt's just, yeah. Yeah.

114:32HostAll right, man. Like, what plans do you have? What, what, what do you want to share? Like, what, what do we need to follow? Like, like regarding your, your personal project where we can.

117:09?Nice.

117:10HostGood people. Where should you, people follow you if they want to follow you, the, the, the, your progress or they should follow aims.

117:28HostYou're open for following.

117:38HostAll right. Yoni, thank you very much. Julian, thank you for participating also.

117:46?All right.